I'm moving the discussions here so we can follow our thoughts and discuss in a logical order. I've found on Facebook that after a few posts the conversation splits into tangents and we lose track of each other's posts, which renders the topic hard to follow.
Below this post is a comments section to add discussion or questions.
I am going to take the Facebook topics individually, and it might take quite a while to get them all posted for discussion. I will give the topics a unique number. You can then just start a comment or response with that number and you don't have to re-quote.
I'd like to knock these out one topic at a time but I also want to get to all of them.
If you want to quote a statement I made that is perfectly fine too. (I will use initials for the source of who said or asked what, but if you don't want you initials used please tell me.)
FINALLY, I am blessed and excited that friends who have different beliefs than me can take the time to discuss these things. Thank you!
I decided to start with my favorite topic:
Hell!
1 - MB writes: Mike. Hell is real. Hell is the judgement for not believing in the son of God. John 3:36 makes that clear. Heaven is only for those whose names are written in the book of life (Rev. 20 and 21). Heaven is the eternal home of those who have been born again and followed Christ, and God does plan to cast some into hell--an eternal hell. Not all men will repent and believe. Faith is a gift of God.
For the word of the cross is to them that are perishing
foolishness. But unto us which are being saved, it is the power of God.
1Cor 1:18
- Eternal Hell cannot exist. I think we all agree that "heaven" (eternal, infinite realm) is real. If heaven wasn't real we would have no purpose for discussion. Assuming you mean an eternal place of punishment, lake of fire, etc. If heaven is infinite, that leaves no room for anything else. Infinite existence, by definition "without ending and without ceasing" requires infinite energy to exist. Anything less than infinite energy would mean firstly that God doesn't have enough energy and therefore when it is expended heaven will collapse and all our existence is moot.
- The reason eternal Hell cannot exist is because an eternal construct or system is infinite, otherwise it has an ending. Just like above, an eternal construct requires infinite energy to maintain. ALL of God's infinite energy is spoken for in heaven. There is no "double infinity" or "half infinity" because infinity, and God, CANNOT be divided.
- There cannot be two infinite places. Infinite is everything, for all time, in all places. Taking even one quark from Heaven invalidates every single concept in the Bible.
- Hell is for not believing in Jesus - God clearly and repeatedly indicates in the Bible that we have free-will. That is the WHOLE POINT of our physical existence. By your definition, Christian means one that believes in Jesus as Savior and is saved. This creates so many paradoxes that either God (and Jesus) lied about free-will (Remember Jesus doesn't lie) or we don't really have free-will and we will go where we are assigned. Here is the dillemma. Over 5 Billion of the people in the world don't believe in Jesus. There are billions who have never HEARD of Jesus. If what you claim is true then even the ones who haven't heard are going to eternal damnation without even being given the chance to choose. HOW JACKED UP IS THAT? There has never been a satisfactory explanation in human history for this paradox.
- Heaven is only for those whose names are written in the Book of Life. I will set my opinions of Revelation aside. It should have never been included in the New Testament (and in fact 40% of the theologians deciding Canon rejected it). Even if you accept it there is a massive contradiction. Logically: To get your name in the book of life, you have to be saved. To be saved you have to profess a believe in Jesus as savior. To believe Jesus is savior you have to first BE TOLD ABOUT JESUS. Therefore - if you've never been told about Jesus, DESPITE HAVING LIVED A PIOUS AND LOVING LIFE, you will be burned eternally. Billions of impoverished people, babies, fetuses, etc. are now damned. There is no answer to this. If you claim that even ONE person who has never heard of Jesus will be eternally condemned, then you negate your entire argument that Jesus is "the way, the only way, and nothing but the way".
- Jesus talks about babies and children over and over. He even tells the the disciples that they can't enter the Kingdom of Heaven unless they become like children. Children are innocent. They have no preconceptions about life. They don't have emotional baggage like fear. To become like children means to strip yourself of your baggage. Jesus also said, "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you." If it's within us then how can it be taken away?
Mark 10:15 (I believe Mark is the foundational Gospel that the others used):
13 People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. 14 When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” 16 And he took the children in his arms, placed his hands on them and blessed them.
- Finally - God has a plan to cast some into hell. If God plans to cast anyone into hell, then he must know about their choices in life and have precognition. If he didn't then he couldn't possible have a "plan". To say God has a plan to torture people means we don't really have free-will. It means God is evil and since he knows ahead of time that anyone will be damned then we are in a cruel experiment as dumb animals.
- Before Jesus, Jews had no concept of eternal life as a spirit. Their teachings were of an eternal physical existence, whether in Sheol or on Earth. They believed, and were told, that they are God's Chosen People. This creates a paradox: If Jesus is the ONLY way to heaven, then every person before he was born did not go to heaven. He did not exist yet. There are only two possibilities. Either the Jews before Jesus (God's Chosen) all went to hell or they went to heaven. If they went to heaven a Savior is unnecessary. If they went to hell there is no free will, they didn't have a choice since they didn't meet or believe in Jesus, and they really weren't God's Chosen People, which would then invalidate two-thirds of the inerrant Bible.
- I honestly want to hear opinions on these things. I truly want to know, because if the stated premise is true (IE accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior) Then I am "saved" because I did that in 1982. If hell exists then I am wrong and if I don't start telling people then I am allowing them to be damned.
There is a lot of overlap in what I am saying and what you are saying, IE God is eternal, God loves us, we have the Knowledge of good and evil, therefore we have free will. My impression is that those of you who are conservative Christians believe the Bible is either literally the word of God and inerrant, or is the divinely inspired word of God, and also that it is inerrant. If it is errant in even one place it is imperfect and not of God, because God is perfect.
My questions for this topic: - Question: Do we have free will, IE the ability to choose life or death, heaven or hell?
- Question: How do we resolve the paradox of an eternal Hell, which would require infinite energy to keep it running without end?
- Do people who've never heard the Gospel, and therefore never given and opportunity to believe in Jesus, go to Hell?
- What was the fate of the billions of people that were alive and died before Jesus was born?
- What did Jesus mean when he said, If the Kingdom of God is within us, what to we have to be saved from?
- In Mark 10 Jesus says the Kingdom of God belongs to these children. The children obviously have not reached the age of consent, have not accepted Jesus as their Lord and savior, and have not professed their faith publicly. How do you explain this without contradicting everything else you believe?
- Finally, if you truly and honestly believe that everyone who is not a Christian will go to hell, why would you want to go to Heaven? Nearly 75% of the world's population will burn in hell. What could possibly be good about heaven if innocents, children and even your own family members and friends won't be with you? Barring mental illness or sociopathy that makes no sense!
THANK YOU for taking time to answer these hard questions! I am no biblical scholar and I imagine all of these have been asked and answered for at least 2000 years. I can't wait to hear what you all have to say.
To respond, just click the comment button and use the number that you are responding to.
Mike
THANK YOU for taking time to answer these hard questions! I am no biblical scholar and I imagine all of these have been asked and answered for at least 2000 years. I can't wait to hear what you all have to say.
To respond, just click the comment button and use the number that you are responding to.
To respond, just click the comment button and use the number that you are responding to.
Mike
OK, Mike. You want us all to return to the Gospels. Let's go ahead and put this debate about Hell to rest:
ReplyDeleteMatthew 25:31-46 (Otherwise known as "The Judgement."
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Q.E.D.
You pointed out a grievous error I made. (and I thank you).
DeleteIn order to discuss God, heaven, hell etc. the entire (theologically accepted) Bible (KJV on up) MUST be included.
It was foolish of me to summarily dismiss the rest of it without giving you the chance to use the entire basis of your faith.
I believe Matthew 25 is accurate. I don't believe there will be a literal meeting and culling, (again my beliefs don't make anything true or false), but that whatever is not of God will be destroyed.
Even taken literally as an actual event that will happen, there are some very real paradoxes with evangelical Christianity (and I am not using weasel words to get out of proving my declarations):
Jesus may have taught by Parables, but when he did speak, he spoke clearly and in absolutes. He said THIS IS the truth.
"All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats."
All the nations MEANS all the nations. If it's Parable then the whole point of the chapter means nothing.
All the nations, either actual countries or all the people, are gathered before him and he separates out the sheep and goats. We all agree that the sheep are HIS, clearly.
He lists the things the Sheep did. It is a MAGNIFICENT statement that includes the acts the Sheep were commanded to do, given authority to do and given power to do. They did EXACTLY what he asked. I agree that these verses are literally correct.
Next, he explains why the kingdom of heaven is prepared for them. No argument here.
Next he judges the goats. It doesn't really matter whether they are literal goats or metaphorical goats. The meaning here is clear: "Then they will go away to eternal punishment". The only quibble I have here is eternal. They go away, right now, for eternity. They are blanked out. Again, our beliefs on what eternal punishment is don't matter for this argument. The goats are gone and the sheep remain. The sheep are righteous and receive eternal life. (to me this means their life is eternal and cannot be destroyed. This is the salvation from death).
Now, to the paradox, Jesus JUST said that the kingdom of heaven is given to the sheep through their works. There is no mention of salvation by faith alone, salvation by ONLY those who believe in Jesus.
I agree completely that this chapter is a true account of what Jesus did that day.
From my (admittedly limited) point of view is that this scripture nullifies salvation by faith.
First can you refute the paradox in the context of this chapter, which we agreed to discuss?
If not, what additional scripture needs to be added to resolve the paradox.
Thank you brother!
There is nothing in the Gospels, per se, save John chapter 3. There are many items in the letters of Paul that require faith, not works alone. But, we are playing by your rules. So here is the relevant passages (and additional for context):
DeleteNow there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”
3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a]”
4 “How can someone be born when they are old?” Nicodemus asked. “Surely they cannot enter a second time into their mother’s womb to be born!”
5 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You[c] must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”[d]
9 “How can this be?” Nicodemus asked.
10 “You are Israel’s teacher,” said Jesus, “and do you not understand these things? 11 Very truly I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[e] 14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,[f] 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”[g]
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.
"No one can see.." present tense, a specific response to a specific statement. Nicodemus acknowledges that Jesus has proven himself to be the one and only expression of God on earth.
DeleteThis is not about forever. This is about people seeing him and his works. Jews had no concept of spiritual existence until Jesus taught it to them. Nicodemus asked a plain question and got a plain answer.
"born again" Made anew, stripping away sin and judgement, absolving guilt.
Jesus said, "the Kingdom of God is within you". This statement very clearly means that you can't see the Kingdom of God unless you get rid of all the baggage of sin, fear, whatever. You are born again at that instant into new life without fear and without sin. You can see the Kingdom of God that is within you at that moment. You are saved.
"whoever believes in him shall not perish" - True
"For God did not send his son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him" - True. This was Jesus literal job. Not to save "part" or "some" but to save the "WORLD".
Condemnation wasn't his job. Clearly stated. He did not come to condemn. He is the only one in the history of the Universe with the "AUTHORITY" to condemn. But that was not his job and he did not do that.
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned." -Absolutely true.
"Whoever does not believe stands condemned already.." - again, true. People who have heard of Jesus, and choose not to believe and not to do what he said are condemned (still no eternal hell mentioned) to live out their days in sin, hate and despair. They will die never knowing the utter joy of fellowship with God and his children.
I think we can agree on that part.
The rest I have to infer, and please correct me if I'm wrong.
Our bodies were born of flesh, our spirits born of spirit. You can't see spirit or tell where it came from or where it's going. It is literally infinite, like God.
My words: Spirit came from God, the only infinite. Bodies die. Spirit returns to the infinite presence of God.
...only those that believe are were absolved because they did not have the choice. Everyone else...not so much.
Delete(still no eternal hell mentioned)...
We already covered this in the Gospel according the Matthew.
I must have missed it. Are people who haven't heard of Jesus absolved?
DeleteNot being ignorant, I really did miss it.
And, BTW, it is absurd to use the laws of physics to attempt to explain the SOURCE of the laws of physics. As the SOURCE, God is not bound by the physical laws of our existence.
ReplyDeleteAs for the remainder of your questions 12-16, poppycock. Those are questions that have long ago been answered. Jesus' death on the cross absolved all those of sin before him and all those after THAT HAVE HEARD AND CHOOSE TO FOLLOW. (I'm not yelling, just emphasis with no ability to hit bold). I happen to believe that has nothing to do with baptism. It has to do with seeking God's love and loving your fellow human (which requires works, not just intellectual assent).
My question remains. Matt said that everyone who did not believe in Jesus Christ will go to eternal hell to be burned.
DeleteI'm okay that he absolved all sin of those before. In fact that is what I believe.
The problem I have is those "THAT HAVE HEARD AND CHOOSE".
There is still no answer to the question about those who haven't heard.
They are absolved as well. If you have not heard, you cannot choose. This works for some pygmee in the Amazon and children. They are the same. You cannot make a choice if you have not been presented one.
DeleteBut the claim has been made that believing in Jesus is the only way to avoid hell. I'm prepared to declare that false.
DeleteThe next part reminds me of a joke:
There is a certain priest doing mission work among the Inuit tribes in Alaska.
The village chief asks, "So what you are saying is that there is this man who is from God, and if I don't believe in him I will be burned forever?"
The Priest replies, "Yes, you are correct!"
The chief replies, "The I wish you had never told me about this man."
I didn't make that claim. But I believe that once faced with the choice, you must choose. That was in the post above in John. You cannot accept those statements as true and then dismiss the rest. You may not understand the apparent contradictions, but it is not necessary for you to understand. You have your relationship and let God sort out the rest. I do not condemn non-Christians. That is not man's job. That is God's to decide.
DeleteYou didn't make that claim. It was from Matt on the original topic above.
DeleteOh, and look at #2 again. Because infinity is infinity, it can be subdivided as many times as you wish, it is still infinity. Ergo, God has sufficient energy to open and infinite number of hells and heavens simultaneously.
ReplyDeleteAnd for #3, you might say that there can only be one. But the alternative interpretation of quantum mechanics says there can be an infinite number of places. Kinda fries the brain...
You cannot subdivide infinity. It's not possible mathematically and it's not possible physically or spiritually.
DeleteHeaven is the eternal realm. That is confirmed through scripture (and by science, but dragging that in would confuse people).
Dividing infinity means you either have TWO infinities which is impossible, or that the original wasn't infinite.
ANY OTHER PLACE than the one infinite place is, by definition, finite. We know that at least one of these exists and that is our universe/earth, etc.
Our universe is not infinite. I think all religious people and all scientists agree here. Whether it's running out of fuel, or contracting back to a singularity or as simple as "it will pass away". It is bounded by time, starting with either the Big Bang or Genesis, and the upper limit is the present.
Is it possible to create an unlimited number of finite universes out of infinity? YES! As many as you want.
It is NOT possible to create even ONE infinite thing aside from the ONE that exists. Infinity is the very definition of all things, all places, all times.
It is impossible. Putting aside classical physics, quantum physics and thermodynamics, you are left with scripture. If heaven is infinite (and it is) there can be nothing else, otherwise it's not infinite and it's not eternal. That leaves absolutely no room for a hell that is eternal.
Could you spin off a HUGE hell that lasts for a long, long, long time (perhaps an AEON for the Greek lovers)? Yes. But it would totally nullify the original statement of eternal punishment.
Yes you can. If you do not assume waves collapse, you arrive at the multi-verse explanation of quantum mechanics which holds that there are an infinite number of universes simultaneously. It all depends on where you apply the infinity.
DeleteIf the wave never collapses you are absolutely correct.
DeleteUnfortunately for Satan we can never observe an uncollapsed wave function. It collapses when we observe it.
Hell that we cannot observe or experience really has no meaning.
This is only if you accept the wave collapse postulate. If you do not, the multi-verse arises in which case Satan can reside in any number of hells. Freaky, but thems the rules. I personally find all of that an absurd attempt to resolve the existence of infinity in the quantum calculations that do drives physicists nuts. If you aren't really worried about it, it doesn't matter. As I said, God is not beholden to the laws of physics, so he can do whatever He wants. Rational explanations are meaningless and futile.
Deleteyou are right. I don't see any way to prove or disprove Satan. We might accidentally create a wormhole going in circles.
Delete#4. That is a false choice between two mirror images of the same response. Your response is only valid if you believe in predetermination. In which case there was no point for the game. It is true that it seems a paradox. But thing about any battle. The outcome of the conflict between the military forces of the U.S. and Iraq was predetermined (i.e., God will win the battle). But, which soldier died at which point was not predetermined. It seems a paradox, for sure. But remember the concept, "I don't know." Embrace it and have joy.
ReplyDeleteIf I don't know, and you don't know (something I've maintained from the beginning) then it is absolutely impossible to extrapolate ANYTHING into an eternal hell.
DeleteUnless you can prove you DO know, and I mean PROVE, then all you have is belief and hope. No matter what you believe or what you hope for (by your own definition) it does not make something real.
To turn it around I DO have joy BECAUSE I Don't Know! I would have no joy if one single person died permanently, or went to hell. I have no more fears, no more worries, no more anxiety (which should be self-evident by my preposterous maniacal writing).
Whether or not God knows is immaterial. I believe that he is eternal and infinite, and exists out of "time" (a construct or our minds) he DOES know all things that have happened and will happen.
We don't have access to that knowledge. If we did, we wouldn't be human.
We don't know God's will. We don't know the future.
The difference between me and evangelicals is that I don't care if any other person on earth agrees with me.
Evangelicals are asking people to believe in something they can't possibly know.
Salvation is outside belief or knowledge. Believing in Jesus or not believing has ZERO effect on the existence of Salvation.
Time is not a construct of our minds. Time exists...it is just not independent of space. I have private knowledge (that which I know but cannot reproduce) about hell. Neither heaven nor hell can be "proven" because, by definition, they are apart of the infinite nothingness (the wave). That was the point of the previous reply. You cannot used infinity to prove infinity because to manipulate infinity results in an indeterminate outcome (the point of the math links). So the author's use of infinity to prove infinity is absurd on its face. Rather, I am prepared to accept through faith the existence of God because there is no rational proof of his existence (if there were, this would be a senseless argument).
DeleteExactly - an indeterminate outcome. You absolutely cannot manipulate infinity. Can't add to it, can't subtract from it, multiply it, divide it.
DeleteIt is really just a word to substitute for what cannot be known in our physical universe.
He isn't trying to prove infinity. He is proving that this universe we live in is NOT infinity.
Because we are NOT infinite in THIS universe everything that exists, every action we take has absolutely no effect on anything outside this universe.
No, that is not what it says. What it says is YOU DO NOT KNOW what happens when you add, subtract, or multiply with infinity. It is indeterminate to the math. It does not say you CANNOT. It just says there is no RATIONAL answer to the operation. Big difference. Again, as above, you are attempting to provide a rational explanation to what is inexplicable. If God is everything, then anything is possible regardless of our meager attempts at understanding His thoughts.
DeleteWith the math I'm not trying to read God's mind. I am using it to build my arguments upon because they would be speculative otherwise.
DeleteLogically if my foundation is not laid then I have no way to proceed.
I will start at zero because even I am confused about my claims. These are things I accept to be true.
Tell me if you agree with these statements, and if not, why. Consider my prevoius conclusions unproven.
a. We live in a finite universe, limited by space and time.
b. We cannot immediately perceive what is outside our universe.
c. Though unprovable, we accept that you exist and that I exist as separate and unique people for this conversation.
d. Time is finite; bound by the lower limit of the creation of the universe, and the upper limit of the present.
e. Time is completely interdependent on space, and vice versa.
f. The Heisenberg uncertainty principle is true. We can only know the location of particle, or it's speed, but not both.
oh... forgot the most important part. We need to agree on a defition of infinity.
DeleteOK. I will play.
Deletea. I am not sure. I know that what we observe is finite as best we can tell, but I do not know what is on the other side of the singularity. It could be like an infinite plane and all we are observing is the point where God's finger has pressed downward creating this "bubble" we live in. But, sure, for the sake of argument.
b. True. Not with our technology or our senses.
c. Yes. We exist.
d. Not sure here. Wave theory suggests that once the wave collapses, there is linear time, which implies a future (perhaps probabilistic) as well.
e. Yes. According to Einstein.
f. Yes. This last part is what I have used to develop the argument that we are not observers and cannot be. There can only be one observer for our state of nature that we both agree we exist in.
There is not definition of infinity. The best working definition is "that we cannot count that high." This is, in fact the problem that I have raised. Because you cannot manipulate infinity, it makes the author's (of the book you sent me to) argument absurd. "In the limit" does not exist as a real number. Therefore, it is abstract and no more reliable as a measure of anything than "I believe." It's useful as an analytical abstraction, nothing more.
Now, fire away.
#7. ??? Huh? You might want to think about that one again. Just because the State of Texas builds a jail, it does not INTEND to put anyone in it. They have a plan to handle criminals, but they do not create the crime nor do they know who will choose to be a criminal.
ReplyDeleteGod is simply saying that there will be no sin in his house. He has a plan for those that choose to sin (and not repent). You make the choice. It's up to you.
You have an omnipotence problem. Either God is omnipotent and this was all an elaborate ruse and cruel game. Or he is not, in which case you have free will.
Ironically, the most fervent believes in omnipotence are also the most fervent prayer givers. If God knows all and the deck is stacked, what is the purpose of prayer? I happen not to believe in omnipotence. I believe He can change the game (maybe that focused thought in quantum spacetime??). But, these are just conjectures. In the end, I take comfort in knowing that I am doing what I can and what happens when I die.
e KNOW what God is because we are there. That leaves only one unanswered question. We know all that God is. The only new thing to discover is to find out what God is NOT.
DeleteThat's why I keep saying all this is not real.
For us to ask the question is purely academic. That's like asking how to ride a bike. You can't ride a bike until you actually get on it.
To answer the only unanswered question we have to experience it. We have to put ourselves into a world with rules. One of the rules is that we have to belief that God is "somewhere else" because if he is right here interacting with us then there is no point in the game.
What we perceive IS the game. Everything in this universe is the answer to the question of what is God NOT.
DeleteWe have to accept that we need to experience all these things that are not God. Pain, suffering, war, murder, violence. We have to perceive them as real, otherwise it's just a movie with willing suspension of disbelief. You aren't interacting and you aren't learning.
You also agree to forget your infinite spirit for the time being. If we remembered it, everything we perceive is meaningless.
Because we are infinite beings, our entire existence will not fit in this universe. That's math.
We can, however, create a finite being "in our own image"(only an image, and thus imperfect), and experience what he experiences. We get to be in a "virtual" reality in which we are fully immersed to find out what God is not.
DeleteWe agree to a limited lifetime. We agree to have no punches pulled. Otherwise there is nothing to learn if nothing hurts.
Ironically this means pain and suffering are things that aren't of God and that do not exist in the only infinite universe.
Because we are infinite, and existed before this universe was ever breathed into existence, we have no beginning and no end.
We cannot ever die, we cannot ever be snuffed out, we cannot possibly under any circumstance experience eternal suffering.
This presents the final answer to all the why questions. People are always asking christians, what about the children, etc. and asking them to explain.
The biggest problem christians have with this reality is the famous question, "What about Hitler?"
I don't expect you to believe this, and I doubt that you will NEVER EVEN consider it for even a second. But I will answer it.
This world is not real, it has a beginning and ending. From our infinite perspective, and God's, time does not exist. Therefore anything that is finite starts and stops in the twinkling of an eye.
We have handicapped ourselves in order to perceive this world. When we return we will have memories, but our physical existence will seem like an infinitesimally small occurrence.
WHAT WE DO HERE DOES NOT MATTER.
WHAT HITLER DID ONLY MATTERS IN THIS NOT-REAL, TINY UNIVERSE.
There is no salvation. There is nothing to be saved from.
Here's another one that will blow your mind.
DeleteWe ARE connected to our infinite selves. All of our traits that are innate, like spontaneous ideas, a sense of a distinct spirit and our ability to do God's work are from the infinite universe.
Jesus appeared at exactly the right moment. Despite having free will, people were going ape shit and destroying the game. It was chaos and any concept of eternal life had gone out the window.
Jesus stepped in so we could have a time-out. He did so as a human, with all the feelings and suffering of a human.
His mission was to first remind us, by planting a seed of Faith, that we are more than what we think we are, and there IS a point to living.
He also reminded us of the gift that we had forgotten. God can't interfere in this world on his own. That would break the rules and make life pointless.
God CAN intervene in this world THROUGH us. Jesus proved it! Physically healing people, feeding the hungry, binding up wounds...
He showed us that he had authority from God to do these things, and he gave us Authority to do them, and even greater, and he gave us the power to do them.
Here's another crazy one:
Faith Healing is absolutely real. No by some flowery prayer chain or prayer "group".
There is nothing to pray for. All you need has already been given. It can't happen on it's own. You have to be the source of God's power.
Faith is absolute, black and white. Faith is doing work, like healing, in full reliance and trust in God.
You do not need to ask what you already have. Jesus gave you the authority to name and cast out pain, disease and injury.
NONE of this depends on belief. The one being healed has no choice to refuse, and any cognitive doubt is irrelevant.
When you act through TOTAL FAITH, with power given in the name of the Messiah, NAME the thing to be destroyed and order it destroyed it is GONE.
I bet all that just blew your mind! Not the reality of healing, but that I believe it.
So yeah.. back on track. We DON'T KNOW anything about what happens outside this world. We have either forgotten or agreed to forget. Belief, faith, etc. have nothing to do with what is real outside our universe.
Because we don't know and can't know, any claim by a preacher that you "need" saving is completely and utterly false. Any claim of exclusivity of said "salvation" is unfounded.
You can't have faith (little f) if you don't know.
Why did we put ourselves in a world with rules? We did not. We are not even capable of doing it. What your author did not mention is that his proposition is impossible. Because you and I are speaking (in the past, by the way), we are sharing the same reality. And the probability that two people can observe the same reality from outside is exactly equal to zero (the area under the probability density function of possible wave states for a single state is equal to zero). Thus, my comment that there can only be one observer (God), if you are on this line of quantum mechanics logic. Thus, therein lies the impossibility of his argument.
DeleteWhy do we need to interact with these things? Why do we need to learn? If everyone is an extension of God and there is no consequence for choices, why do we need to learn? If we were part of the infinite, do we not already have infinite knowledge?
Read the last "crazy one." Do you not introduce the same paradox you raise above. If all these are already there, why does God NEED to intervene? Why are we here? Do we have free will? To do what?
Why we would put ourselves here can't be answered. I can speculate and say that if you already know everything God is, the only interesting thing to do would be to handicap yourself and find out what God isn't.
DeleteI accept we are sharing the same finite universe. Our bodies are both present here, seeing the same things and playing by the same rules.
But we aren't observers. We are players. I agree that the only one that can watch the game is the one that is completely outside the game.
If I suggested we were just observers it was unintentional.
An analogy is that you and I are playing an online multiplayer game. Our true existence is outside the game, but we are experiencing the game, and controlling our character, from a first-person perspective.
In some games I've played if you die before the round is over you can sort of fly around and watch what everybody else is doing, but you can't interact. You are the outside observer who doesn't have a character in the game.
Likewise there are no meaningful real-life consequences for how we play. There are consequences in the game according to the rules. (Still analogy) Anybody can play, but you get only one life. When your character is killed you can't respawn, therefore if you want to play for a long time you have to avoid getting killed.
When your character is killed you can't play anymore (in THIS game) but it is completely inconsequential to the real you sitting in front of the TV.
Just like the point you made, the observer cannot observe and play. I fully accept that God may be the only observer, but that does not preclude other people from playing.
By that same token the observer (God) cannot directly intervene. But he can intervene THROUGH you. He's watching and not 'connected'. You are connected (to put it like Bill said, the "Big Darren" is sitting right now in the presence of God, while the "Little Darren" is here).
It's hard to picture but God gave you "power-ups" to manipulate events here. The only way you CAN manipulate things here is through that power.
We don't have free reign. We cannot manipulate wealth, for example, or create fantasy castles to live in.
We CAN heal people, love people, help people, relieve suffering. What we can do with God's power is limited to the things Jesus told us. We can only fulfill 'needs' and not 'wants'.
We can do amazing things, that seem absolutely crazy and unbelievable, like cure stage 4 cancer. But we can't give someone the power to fly.
Back on topic of the last paragraph though... There isn't a paradox. Because we are a character (for lack of a better term) we are connected to a real-life player.
Information can be exchanged back and forth without violating quantum physics. Our characters can only know and do what is allowed by the rules.
There is no way for me to know why certain rules exist, but I don't need to. Everything I need to play the game is here.
I forgot the most important point. The only way God can "do" anything in this world is through you. If you are healing someone that is where God is and what God is doing.
DeleteIf you are at a strip club, that is where God is and what God is doing.
The ONLY way for God to interact is through a player connected to the game.
This is exactly why God doesn't create suffering. The only suffering in this world is through accident (completely allowed by the rules) or through mankind CAUSING suffering.
"An analogy is that you and I are playing an online multiplayer game. Our true existence is outside the game, but we are experiencing the game, and controlling our character, from a first-person perspective."
DeleteInteresting, but that violates the laws of physics that you started with. According to Heisenberg, I cannot be both outside and inside at the same time. If God cannot manipulate the players (directly intervene), the how can we as less than God hope to do the same.
So, Occam's Razor. What requires fewer assumptions...that we are, in fact, finite without the direct intervention of God (salvation) operating in a finite universe, or that we somehow have the infinite energy to move both in and out of limitless space without disrupting the collapsed wave being held by the attention of God?
Think on what you are doing. You are spinning a (very interesting) ever-increasingly complex web of assumptions to rationalize your disagreement with the evangelical assertion that salvation can only come through baptism in some bassackwards hillbilly church handling snakes.
Perhaps it would be more productive to pursue the line of argument of whether Jesus really intended salvation for everyone (your assertion), or a small set of Jews and Gentiles that choose to attempt self-drowning. That seems to be the real heart of your dilemma.
This was interesting so I wanted to reply with my thoughts. I put up a new post today because I am TOTALLY ruining this one. LOL!
DeleteI will also send this to Bill to get his thoughts because you've brought up things I haven't considered.
What I "think" (obviously I don't know because the only thing I've proven is that I have NO IDEA what I am talking about!)
1 - I agree that we cannot exist both outside the game and inside the game. I think this is why I think our bodies aren't really 'us', they are just characters in a game.
2 - I.. hmm... I just realized you may be on to something. I think God is observing our little bubble from the outside. He can't watch and play, and I think he would probably find playing pretty boring.
3 - I am not convinced that we actually "are" less than God. (don't bother calling the pope. I've been excommunicated at least four times and I've never been Catholic). This is totally unprovable, at least by my weak grasp of physics. I do think however that we are infinite beings, living in an infinite paradise with an infinite God.
4 - The mechanism of our interaction is still hypothetical. However I do like the idea of the planck-scale traversable wormhole. It ties up a lot of loose ends, like quantum foam, dark energy etc.
I can't picture it accurately but the way I was able to grasp it is that we are in a balloon, and there is a giant helium tank outside the balloon inflating it. (the tank is infinite.
Because the "pressure" (my term because I don't know enough about the physics of it) fills the balloon and it not only starts expanding, but the higher the pressure the rate of expansion.
In that simple analogy, though, it does account for dark energy "pulling" the universe apart, but that can't be observed and there isn't enough room for.
It also accounts for communication between the balloon and the tank as long as the wormhole remains open.
Since the 'tank' side of the wormhole has massive size and energy and pressure, it becomes very easy to open a wormhole into the bubble, and very hard from the balloon side to close it.
I think it also provides an explanation for information transfer. We obviously can't see a giant nozzle spewing stuff in the universe, but the quantum idea of everything interconnecting provides a plausible way for trillions of trillions of wormholes that are massive on the tank side, but tiny on our side.
This could also explain where our original thoughts get into our brains, from our players.
Pure thought experiment but what do you think?
Good questions though...Has really made me think about my own thoughts again.
ReplyDeleteAnd for your own amusement:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.philforhumanity.com/Infinity_Divided_by_Infinity.html
http://www.mathsisfun.com/calculus/limits-infinity.html
Responding as I read.
Delete"infinity divided by infinity is undefined" This is exactly why you can't divide infinity.
"Therefore, infinity subtracted from infinity is undefined. "
You can't do it.
You can't take anything AWAY from infinity.
This is my point about infinite hell.
There is infinity. Our universe is a little, limited bubble inside infinity, that lasts for a brief time, but is not infinite.
Infinity is heaven, therefore NOTHING exists apart from heaven!
There is NO eternal hell. There is no room for it. Heaven occupies every infinite place and time.
Is there a LIMITED hell? Maybe. Even in Bill's book he describes the dark place he visited many times. But it is DEFINITELY NOT infinite.
OMG This cracks me up! THESE ARE THE EXACT EQUATIONS USED IN THE BOOK TO PROVE THAT OUR BODIES AND EVERYTHING IN OUR UNIVERSE IS NOT REAL!
DeleteHAHAHA!
Hi Mike,
ReplyDeletePermit me if you will,
If faith is the substance of things hoped for, and the evidence of things unseen...
If without faith it is impossible to please God...
Where is your faith? Will you believe Gods word only if it makes sense to you? Is that then faith in self? If you feel that it is true? If it can be explained and comprehended first?
"The reason eternal Hell cannot exist is because..."
Are you desiring to rebuke God and tell him that your understanding of his awesome nature,holy wrath, generous love, true justice, abundant mercy and perfect righteousness eliminates the possibility that what he said about hell is true?--For it is impossible for God to lie.
Mike, there are answers to your questions in the Bible. I would be glad to visit and talk about them, but I don't have the time or ability to keep track online, but I'm also unwilling to simply drop the topic--it's important to you. Yet, without taking God's word at face value, or are not willing to let scripture alone interpret scripture from Genesis to Revelation, we wouldn't have a basis or starting point.
There Bible does tell us what happens if men die in their sins, if they die unredeemed by Christ, or even if they die with a false illusion of being a christian without true repentant faith. (the many who said unto him Lord, Lord...)
There is only 1 destiny for all these, it is the destiny they deserve and will receive on judgement day. It is not unjust of God that a man be condemned to eternal judgement for man's own sin. If we look at what God has said about how he chooses, calls, and redeems people and somehow feel that HE is unjust, we have stood in condemnation of a holy God--It shows how little we understand of his nature.
If I may, I challenge you to one thing: Ask God for the faith to take him at his word.
1 Cor 1
Not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God hath CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yes, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing things that are:
That no flesh should glory in his presence.
As far as rebuking God... God did not say one word in the Bible. The "bible" was written by man. Imperfect, fallible man. It has been both intentionally and purposefully corrupted.
ReplyDeleteIt is not and was never intended to be the literal word of God.
The Word of God is clearly stated as the LOGOS or the creation that God spoke in the beginning, and Jesus who was God on earth.
God does not have wrath.
God does not have "generous" love, he has INFINITE love.
God does not have justice. Justice is a human concept. Justice means judging and WE DO NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO JUDGE.
God does not have "abundant" mercy. He has LIMITLESS MERCY.
God DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HELL. Any conceivable reference to hell in the Holy Bible has a factually proven creation of Man. Every single one.
WE ARE NOT THE CREATOR.
God doesn't lie because he doesn't "say" anything. It is spiritually and scientifically impossible for God to "say" anything to man that is understandable.
MAN CAN NOT PERCEIVE GOD. To perceive we have to name, measure, describe. That means our description is finite and we have made God in our own image.
I am perfectly happy, as stated, to discuss anything in the Bible.
Here is the nail in the coffin:" If we look at what God has said about how he chooses, calls, and redeems people and somehow feel that HE is unjust, we have stood in condemnation of a holy God--It shows how little we understand of his nature."
How, then, is it possible to claim there IS a hell? I can't and you can't. Human belief has absolutely nothing to do with God's existence.
I'm not playing word games or trying to convince you to change faith or beliefs. Your beliefs are yours.
What I am saying, and have said, and will continue to say.. is that if you tell one person that there is a hell, or a judgment or damnation you have to have proof.
If you cannot prove it, then it exists only as a construct of your own mind.
There is only one Truth. That is the definition of Truth.
Truth is infinite, and as we all agree, we CAN'T know all of it.
You have solid beliefs. I have no quarrel with that. My problem, and the problem I've had from the start, is that proclaiming your beliefs to a third-party as truth, ESPECIALLY when it contains things that are of ENORMOUS CONSEQUENCE like eternal hell that you yourself claim to not be able to know (but are good enough to scare with) you are doing EXACTLY what Jesus said NOT TO DO.
Even if we leave every trace of dogma out of the argument, and agree that God is infinite, which I believe we do, hell CANNOT exist.
God is infinite. God is everywhere at all times. Otherwise He is not infinite.
Anything ETERNAL (like hell) either cannot exist, OR hell is where God is (everywhere, all time) and that means God lives in Hell.
Does that leave room for some 'kind' of hell? maybe, but we don't know.
However, since God is infinite and you cannot divide infinite lest you divide God, there is nowhere else in space or eternal time for hell to be.
I almost forgot. Hope leaves room for doubt. Hope does not matter. Hope for something does not create it.
DeleteBelief does not matter. Believing in God or hell or Jesus does not make them happen. Otherwise our belief would be able to create God. Even I can't accept that.
Faith(absolute reliance and trust in God) is the only thing that is real. I have Faith. I mean that literally. There are no more reasons for belief, hope, fear, doubt, hate... in me. I fear absolutely nothing. I don't fear injury or disease. I don't fear death. I don't fear economic collapse or any other thing that is not God.
I don't even fear God in the commonly used context of fright.
"FEAR GOD!" means to worship Him with "reverential awe".
I am not my body. When my body dies there is no longer anything left to burn up and there is no longer any way to feel pain.
"God DID NOT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HELL. Any conceivable reference to hell in the Holy Bible has a factually proven creation of Man. Every single one."
DeleteFirst, where did God "speak" at any point? Second, you have been using the Gospels as the revealed, eye-witness accounts of Jesus. I have clearly demonstrated in a number of locations within those Gospels that directly reference eternal punishment from Jesus' own mouth. Because you choose not to take them literally does not make them less real.
I am not a literalist. I am quite certain there are things meant to be taken literally, and those that are not. But, you yourself said Jesus doesn't lie and Jesus speaks clearly, and I think I have provided you with evidence that he spoke clearly that there is eternal punishment...eternal cannot mean one thing for heaven and another for hell, or he lied.
God speaking is the conversation I just had with Kevin on Facebook. Blogger wouldn't accept his post so he asked over there.
DeleteGod did not, and can not, "speak". It is impossible for us to know God's intentions.
Kevin was using the argument that God said X and it was in the scriptures.
My thesis from the beginning (even before the hell discussion) is that the evangelical doctrine of salvation is false, IE salvation by faith, and/or salvation by believing in Jesus.
Those are extraordinary claims and they require extraordinary proof. If the only way to get salvation is to go through Jesus, then five billion people are going to hell.
Evangelicals and fundamentalists absolutely refuse to budge, but have not proven their extraordinary claims.
Even though this particular topic was about hell, the nature of the punishment is less important that the WHY and the WHO that will receive it.
If anyone is absolved in the absence of Jesus, which it sounds like we both believe, then salvation by faith is false and to continue to state it in churches in front of millions is disengenuous and is not Christianity.
Well, I tend to disagree with that. God did speak through Jesus, and so to say that God did not say anything about hell is false as demonstrated through the words of Jesus.
DeleteNow, my statement about absolution is also based on the scripture as you have referenced. Grace was granted to all those before Jesus. Afterwords, it gets more dicey. The scriptures are clear that you must believe in Jesus to gain entry into heaven. But, logic demands that if you have never been faced with the choice, you cannot make it. So you are not denying it, you just don't know. I have to believe that God fully intends those without that choice to receive Grace as well. Here is where faith comes in. You have to have faith that God is smarter than you and has figured this stuff out.
I failed to consider that he had already said his sheep believe in him, which makes much more sense that they were chosen. It dawned on me driving to work.
ReplyDeleteI posted back on FB that I think I have really made myself miserable because I am basically just ranting and not listening. I need to reframe my argument and stop dismissing others.
Just couldn't help but jump in: what if hell is not at all what we have presumed or imagined it to be, in the absence of a well characterized description that is free of metaphor, keeping in mind that a metaphor is subject to the times, and in this case we are dealing with a metaphor tat is at least 2000 years old, there is no lucid and unambiguous description of 'hell' in western religion.
ReplyDeletein which case, hell could be as the greeks intepreted it, being one 'self' for a long period of time after death, rather than being freed from being one 'self,' and last as brief as the blink of an eye in spiritual terms.
and then here is the ambiguity of the translation of the word we usually use or see translated as 'eternity,' nd all of its itterations, which did not exist in the hebrew language at the time of the writing, hence, the jews had no precedence for eternal life following death. this idea first proposed by Jesus was absolutely radical thinking at the time.
In essence, some people have come to a similar conclusion. That is, hell is simply what you like least (for the Greeks, it was their self-loathing selves). In a sense, hell is personal. I don't know. I just know the idea is that to have "choice" means there must be a trade-off. If there is no trade-off (costs and benefits, rewards and punishments, etc.) there is truly no choice. (Can you tell I am an economist??)
DeleteI would like to state for the record that the worst punishment I can imagine involves a beach, girls, beer and chicken-fried steak. Just in case anyone is taking notes.
DeleteIs that kind of like Dan Akroyd thinking the marsh-mellow man in Ghostbusters. Be careful what you wish for!!
Delete